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U1400 / U1500 section?T52.Index ->

posted at 2012-09-22 04:33 by milpat

Hello,

as many knows, i build teams for ArchBishops,
and there is a problem i'm facing since the new sections format:
hard to find a spot for 1300-1400 players ... i mean a competitive spot!
T51's lowest section was Lasker section (max. 1593.75) (we can almost say U1600)
best i could do for the 1400's players, is to find them a spot as sub, and try to let them play as much as possible, but is that really satisfying for them?
Players simply quit team and go try another team, to realize that it's similar in other team,
then simply lose interest.

I wonder what would be the solution, perhaps create a U1500 or a U1400 section? despite the fact that we using the new section creation format, is only idea i got. any better idea?

(or maybe i'm the only one that is bothered with that)

i'd like to have your opinion(s)

thanks,
- Pat./ ArchBishops

posted at 2012-09-22 05:31 by Nitreb

In the last TL tournaments before adopting the new format, there was no U1400 section because there were simply not enough teams to make one. With the new format, U1400 players like me have an opportunity to play, albeit against stronger opposition - personally, I like that. I'm not sure there's a way to include a U1400-only team in the current structure; that would result in a hybrid system with two sets of rules for establishing the sections.

The lack of playing opportunities for U1400 players is a real problem, thought - even now since TL is becoming more and more "We must win" in character, meaning that lower rated players in a team don't get enough opportunities to play. That has been my experience lately, and I'm now regretfully considering finding another team. Being allowed to play only one game in a 7-round tournament is simply not satisfactory.

Nitreb

posted at 2012-09-22 09:35 by zulugodetia

Hello, I think having an u1400 team is a good idea as milpat suggested, I remember when I first started Team League I player in the u1400B Team, first as a reserve, then on a board, wow, was I proud of that, gave me the shivers though, all these people watching me, but this is where I learned how to play, and I know, there are lots of players that are too scared to play League, because they feel that they are not good enough, U1400 is where the interest is nurtured, we shouls encourage all Captains to post a recruitment drive for U1400 players, nice suggestions, help some other enjoy the friends met on Team League, c u William

posted at 2012-09-22 10:14 by PankracyRozumek

Hi guys,

I may be not the best person to judge this problem as I don't field a team in the Lasker section, but I disagree that the Lasker section is not playable. Let us see what is the difference between the average of top players in each team and the average of lowest rated players in each team, per section.

Lasker:
average of 1st boards: 1638
average of last boards: 1347
difference: 291

Steinitz:
1st: 1739
last: 1464
diff: 275

Capablanca:
1st: 1824
last: 1509
diff: 315

Alekhine:
1st: 1953
last: 1640
diff: 313

Kasparov
1st: 2036
last: 1768
diff: 268

Spassky:
1st: 2145
last: 1811
diff: 334

Fischer:
1st: 2277
last: 1976
diff: 301

The difference in rating between an average top player and average last player in each section, is the same and is about 300. So your claim, milpat, that you have a problem is not valid ;-).

And congrats for winning the Lasker section! :)

Thanks,
MichaĂ…‚

posted at 2012-09-22 10:22 by milpat

@ Michal

i know many 1400 players who wanna play all rounds, will u take them all man?

btw, u should redo ur graph (nice graph btw) with teams which scored at least 3.0/7.0 ...

perhaps would be more revelant?

...dunno...

posted at 2012-09-23 00:20 by PankracyRozumek

Hi Pat,

I am not sure I understand your problem. Initially I thought you were saying that the Lasker section was too difficult for under 1400 players. And I tried to show that the rating gap between the best and the worst players in the Lasker section is very similar to all the other sections.

Unfortunately I cannot invite any 1400 players this season, because there would be too much gap between my current lowest rated players and a 1400 player. I am trying to reduce this gap slowly but it takes time.

MichaĂ…‚

posted at 2012-09-23 02:26 by milpat

@Michal

yes u got it right, hard for 1400's
the point is in other sections, u can make player play 1 section lower if team is not strong enough
that you cannot do with the lowest section.
(Always keeping in mind that we "all" want competitive teams)

*thats why i said (or tried to say):
that u should not count team which scored 1.0/7 or 2.0/7 as example in your compilation.

probably simply my bad english ;)

still, tnx for your interest friend.

posted at 2012-09-26 19:18 by joshuar

I agree, though U1500 is probably the target number. It's scary to try to join a league where you "feel" like everyone else is better than you. It's better where you feel like that but also know that you've got a group of people who are like you.

Even if the last or fourth boards on our current lowest section are about this same level, they are still alone even on their own teams.

posted at 2012-09-28 03:43 by milpat

Any admin to let know the League's point of view?

posted at 2012-09-29 09:59 by pchesso

I am not an admin here. I just wanted to add that the absence of players rated 1300-1000 is not tl-related. It is the same in other tourneys; please compare:

http://stcbunch.com/pendingsi.php

or

http://rwchess.appspot.com/swissreg2012

It appears to be a general FICS problem, perhaps caused by Glicko, I don't know. Anyway, I don't see how tl could try to influence this.

posted at 2012-09-30 21:29 by PankracyRozumek

Players with rating <= 1400 do exist. I checked on ficsgames.com that yesterday 22.9% of players participating in the 658 games with time control of at least 30 0, had rating <= 1400.

22.9%! That's much higher percentage than in TL. Most of the login names of these players are totally unknown to me, so I guess they are not participating in TL, STC etc.

Perhaps a solution to this problem would be to reach out to these players and invite them to play in TL? If you convince them, and we get more of them, the problem will solve automatically, as TL TDs will have a greater pool of such players to create more sections with them.

MichaĂ…‚

posted at 2012-10-01 18:30 by smallblackcat

Inactive TL admin here, NOT putting the official TL view, just my own opinion:

If I understand it correcly, milpat's point is that <1400 rated players are discouraged from taking part because it's hard for them to play against equals, or even to play at all if they are only subs. Incidentally, this lack of equal opposition may explain why the STC and RW tourneys don't get many <1400 players either.

That said, I don't see how having a 1400/1500 capped section is the solution. The problem the old 1400 section had was that it was difficult to keep teams together, and even more difficult to add new players to stay under the cap, because you needed someone who fit a very narrow rating range. I noticed after each tourney that many of the u1400 teams were no longer rated under 1400 once the tourney ended (when ratings were updated), because the players had improved enough to push them over the cap. This stands to reason - lower-rated players have more room to improve, so statistically speaking they are more likely to improve as a group.

Also, as I recall we rarely got more than 4 teams in u1400 (and I believe the last time we ran it, there were just 2 teams). Having a 1500 cap would make things a bit easier, but I suspect such a section would encounter similar problems in the long-run anyway. It would also be hard to incorporate this into the current structure, so we would probably have to go back to fixed-rating sections to make this work.

I think Michal is right that the solution will have to come from the team captains, not the officials. Recruit enough <1400 players, and there will be enough such teams to form a viable section. Of course this only works if other captains are doing it too, otherwise you could end up at the tail-end of the bottom section.

Another solution is to create teams that pair some relatively higher rated players (eg 1800 or so) with a couple of 1400s, and end up with a 1600 team average. That way, the competitive edge is not lost, and everyone gets a chance to play, so long as your 1400 players don't mind facing some tougher opposition. Nor should they mind really, this happens quite often in TL anyway; for instance I've played my fair share of 2200+ monsters and never complained (or at least, no-one has the chat logs to prove otherwise).

This is a perfectly viable, and legitimate way of building a team; as I recall the SheRocks teams were somewhat like this, as was the Archbishops women's team (can't remember its full name now). These mixed-rating teams seem to be less frequent now than in the old days, I guess because teams no longer need to have some 'rating ballast' on fourth board in order to fit a certain section. Still, if you want to find a spot for one or two 1400 players (you probably need two, as a team of four players is often over-stretched), this is the easiest solution.

posted at 2012-10-04 12:21 by milpat

tnx for your valuable opinion cat