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posted at 2016-11-26 14:08 by turamon

I don't feel that the possibility to disconnect is something that reflects the nature of chess. I know that some people do have bad internet connection and that they should be able to be part of FICS and TL and I do not question that. But I just played a TL game and was in a deep thinking routine when my opponent unintentionally disconnected (this is not about him personally, he apologized several times and I accepted the apologies). I was not able to get back into the game after he returned. I feel like it should be a rule that if someone disconnects he/she should be losing the game. if we can agree on the fact that you have to make space in your life for several hours to play the game, I guess we all can agree on the fact that you need have permanent internet connection for the time the game lasts. look, we don't allow takebacks and moretime as commands in this game and so it would be just a matter of logical consequence to not allow disconnection or a log out. I kindly ask the Admins to think about this. once again, this is not about my opponent, he was as nice and understanding as he could be.

posted at 2016-11-26 22:43 by schachbjm

Hi Turamon,

I disagree with your proposal that a disconnection should result in a forfeit loss.
Without any doubts, players who disconnnect on purpose should be sanctioned.

I live in a highly developed country, nevertheless I lost my connection twice. Nobody can guarantee that his connection will work for several hours since there are external factors (electrical overloads, storms, compiter crashs). And do not forget most players are back within 3 mins.

For me, TL is about playing instructive ganes with a warm atmosphere and team spirit.

Imagine you play an exciting game and after 2 hrs, an interesting position occurs on the board. It would be pity when such a game ends as a forfeit win.

Furthermore there would be players who would not be able to participate in TL any longer (it does not make sense when 3/7 games will be decided by forfeits)

Best regards
Schachbjm

posted at 2016-11-27 01:36 by Turamon

hi schachbjm,

I do understand your objection but:

for the same reason we could allow takebacks because mouse slips happen and wouldn't it be a pity when an exciting game after 2 hrs is decided by a mouse slip?

or we could allow moretime because if your connection is really bad and you lag more than 45 sec/ move shouldn't your opponent be allowed to give you overtime because it would be a pity ...

all of us have to deal with technical problems but we should try to keep the atmosphere during a TL game as close to real life chess as possible and as rewarding for those who are on the other side of the board when an opponent disconnects. I understand your objection, maybe we could find a different rule then? not forfeiting but in real life otb games if an opponent leaves the room or the building at least his clock would keep running down. we should stick to at least this option. so what about letting the clock of the one who's disconnecting run down? if what you say is true (I assume it is, I don't have acces to any statistics) and most players are back within 3 minutes we could keep their clock running and it wouldn't do that much damage.

and I don't know how the system exactly tells you that someone's intentionally disconnecting but I'd strongly recommend that the game is instantly adjudicated as a loss for him.

kind regards

posted at 2016-11-27 02:33 by alexmontes

Here are my two-cent thoughts.

As schachbjm says, I do not know how many people would be willing to play long games if disconnection means forfeit after 2+ hours of play even in a completely winning your position, although the evaluation of the position is not the point here. Certainly not me.

OTB if a player leaves the playing venue, he will have done so intentionally and knowing the consequences. Disconnections in TL are rarely intentional. But besides intentionality, I think the difference is also responsibility or accountability: disconnections due to an issue with your ISP, your router or your power supply are not only unintentional, but also out of your control.

Mouse slips are different; although unintentional, they are somehow your fault (you could have been more careful or typed the moves in), and allowing them may cause endless disputes. By the way, I lost a TL game because of a mouseslip, so I know how frustrating it is. And afaik lag does not require moretime if you use timeseal.

As for letting the clock run, I find it sensible and I have often felt this should be the rule in the server (I hate when, not in TL games, I get disconnected, log back in seconds and my oponnent refuses to resume. I would kill that guy). But something I have experienced is that I am playing my game, and at some point my oponnent takes ages to make his move. You start to lose concentration, the position does not look so complex, what is he looking at? He is getting low on time, if he does not play soon he will end up blundering under time pressure, and so on... then at some point I find out I have lost connection, and this has happened a few minutes ago. How can I "react" if I am not even aware that I have lost connection? I was there, in front of my computer, waiting for my oponnent to move. I can tell you this has happened to me in countless games.

Disconnections are very annoying, but it is so for both sides and the player who disconnects is not getting any advantage (unless he does intentionally because he is low on time). And he will be even more distracted than you, because he will go mad looking at the network indicators on his computer or router.

posted at 2016-11-27 03:08 by turamon

well ... the system is able to detect disconnection and obivously also whether it's intentional or unintentional ... after someone disconnects the clock is always set back to the moment of his disconnection ... so you could get a notice about that if it happens to yourself. and sorry yes you could be aware yourself - there are for instance commands that make the server react to you and if you're disconnected there would be no answer ("ping" for instance is such a command). I just feel that it's within the responsibility of each player to take care for having a connection as stable as possible.

posted at 2016-11-27 03:24 by turamon

well ... the system is able to detect disconnection and obivously also whether it's intentional or unintentional ... after someone disconnects the clock is always set back to the moment of his disconnection ... so you could get a notice about that if it happens to yourself. and sorry yes you could be aware yourself - there are for instance commands that make the server react to you and if you're disconnected there would be no answer ("ping" for instance is such a command). I just feel that it's within the responsibility of each player to take care for having a connection as stable as possible.

posted at 2016-11-27 04:55 by alexmontes

I do not think there is a way to know if a disconnection is intentional or not. How would you know if I intentionally switched my router off or if there was a cut of electricity?

The clock is not set back to the moment of disconnection, but it seems to be set to the move before the disconnection. I sometimes checked that I was connected by sending a command like finger and getting the response of the server, then lost connection, and when we resumed the game the clock of my oponnnet was above the point when I checked I was still connected.

As I said above, I do type commands like finger to check if I get the response from the server when I suspect that I am disconnected, but I do not think I am expected to do this every 30 seconds. Sometimes I like to focus on my game.

If the TL community wants a league only for users with very reliable connections it is fine. I think there are other more important problems, like the [control of the] use of external assistance.

posted at 2016-11-27 07:13 by schachbjm

"D. If a player disconnects, he/she must reconnect and restart game as soon as possible. Games are to be restarted via the TeamLeague bot.
[...]
iv. In other situations that can best be described as technical difficulties, the intent and spirit of the league is that the games be played to a conclusion if possible. Should a player disconnect for more than 15 minutes, or 3 times within 30 minutes, either player may elect to have the game be adjourned to a later date. Should adjournment to a later date not be possible (E.g. after Game Completion Deadline, end of round 6, late in playoff rounds, unavailability of one or both of the players) the Tournament Director will make a determination of Set Game or Set Game Draw, based on the position at the time. It is expected that players and captains will discuss resolution of affected games with Section 3.B. in mind, and not question the motives of the opponent.ΒΆ SC 21-22."
- Section 11 Conduct of the Game

Personally, I do not see a reason to change this rule.

Concerning your objections:
- Mouse slips are without any question your own fault, disconnections are not
- "The server uses timeseal, so that transmission time is not counted
against you. Timeseal will not prevent netlag but it makes the games fairer
when lag occurs." (FICS help)
- Disconnecting is different im comparison to leave the playing venue as alexmontes stated.
- Both, FICS and TL-stuff do have methods to deal with players who disconnects on purpose. Furthermore, I did not have the suspicion that my opponent disconnects on purpose, ever.

Best regards
schachbjm

posted at 2016-11-27 07:49 by turamon

well I see there's no support for a better deal with disconnection for the player who faces an opponent who disconnected or a more real life like approach. especially in TL games when I make space in my life for several hours and have to plan my week due to that this would be great but I see that that's not what's appreciated in here. that's fine with me. I guess I'll tend to rather "make use" of the rules now as I witness other players do than trying to play more equal to what I'd do irl otb.

posted at 2016-11-27 18:58 by joshuar

I hope you're not implying (by "make use") that you're going to "disconnect" to give yourself more time.

The whole point of TeamLeague is to play fun games in a team environment. It's hard to get good "standard" length games online, so #1 TL allows you to find multiple different opponents over several weeks. #2 is the camaraderie that comes with teammates and other TLers watching and commenting on games that you don't get ANYWHERE else.

We're not here to win titles (there are no prizes). We're here just to play fun chess. I have a teammate who is literally sailing around the world. The guy isn't going to find many OTB players or tournaments to enter, and understandably, he might lose his connection from time to time. I feel like we should welcome him as a valuable contributor to the league.

Yes, there's something to be said about someone who consistently drops multiple times in every game. But for the 95% of cases where it's simply bad luck, I'd rather take the fifteen minute inconvenience to finish a good game than take a point for a tournament where, in the end, the points don't matter.

posted at 2016-11-28 11:15 by turamon

no I don't mean that I'm going to disconnect to give myself more time or to analyze a position deeply. no, not that.

but I'll be more relaxed and I'll not be on stand-bye if someone disconnects and does not return within a time frame I'm good with. and I don't feel bound to starting times anymore and will like several opponents did during the last years make use of the grace period if I feel like. because actually that's what's annoying me to be honest: that I stick to the rules and try to be as fair and honest and often feel like that's not really rewarded.

and we may differ concerning that point of view: yes I'm playing for fun but I also play because competing feels good. and if I lose a game because I play someone who's dropping as you said multiple times or his disconnection makes me lose my focus this does not help to make it a fun experience. I agree a good game always makes me feel like in the end the result doesn't matter. but a good game most of the time has my opponent not disconnecting or returning within less than a minute. it most of the time has my opponent connecting at the right time, ready to play. and it has my opponent interested in treating me fair and doing his best to beat me, without giving in, no matter what's the position or material.

posted at 2016-11-28 18:40 by smallblackcat

I have a couple of things here that I think are worth responding to:

for the same reason we could allow takebacks because mouse slips happen and wouldn't it be a pity when an exciting game after 2 hrs is decided by a mouse slip?

There are two simple, if pedantic reasons why takebacks can't be allowed, but disconnections can be: the first is that FICS' tourney variable simply won't allow takebacks. The second (more important) reason is that mouse slips are subjective, and subject to interpretation. Disconnections are a fact that cannot be ignored, so we choose not to penalise them by default, ostensibly for the reasons that schachbjm has put forward.

in real life otb games if an opponent leaves the room or the building at least his clock would keep running down.

This point is also pertinent in regard to people arriving late, but within the grace period. It would be preferable that their clocks were started at the time the game was meant to start, but is not possible for technical reasons. The same applies to disconnections.

Also just a general observation: I understand that disconnections can be frustrating and can disturb a player's train of thought, but really this is small beer compared to the kinds of interruptions/distractions of OTB chess. People moving around beside and behind you, opening and closing doors, coughing, semi-whispered kibitzing and so forth are all totally normal in my experience. Once I even played a game while an association's annual general meeting was taking place behind a curtain in the same room. I would therefore argue that overcoming such distractions is inherently part of the game, however much we might wish otherwise.

posted at 2016-11-29 00:23 by Turamon

to a player who does not have the technical possibility to tell whether his opponent disconnected actively or passively judging disconnection is as much a subjective matter as a takeback or a mouseslip

posted at 2016-12-06 09:43 by herrahuu

I wish disconnections are allowed so as many people can take part let's say from different kind of internet infrastructures. Maybe this opens up some room to use it to ones benefit but that is the lesser evil for me than to exclude some people from the competition. Even I with the connection that should be very reliable haver disconnected, and I wouldn't want to loose 45 45 game on that ground either.

Regarding coming late to the game: our team policy is to make the chess outside board as enjoyable possible for everyone involved. For my members there has to be really good reason to come up late for the game, I am constantly trying to make members of my team as active and prompt in game forum as possible etc. I hope this constitutes to good atmosphere for the competition.