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Teamleague Forum
posted at 2023-08-01 19:49 by Maxysgm
Best regards from all my team, To all TL members, players and TDs.
In the first instance, we apologize for the rounds not played in the times that comprise the fourth and fifth days, in the Alekhine section.
In the case of the fourth round we had two games where the players of the fourth and fifth board claimed the TD point, points which we do not accept to lose, the reason for this decision is because we announced our absence for round 4 in good time. .. all this evidenced in the following chat where we explain the reason for our absence to the corresponding TD:
................................................................ ..........
"messages jaberwock
Messages to jaberwock:
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:18 EDT 2023: : hi
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:28 EDT 2023: : hi
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:28 EDT 2023: : okay I already activated the translator so you can understand me
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:30 EDT 2023: : I already activated the translator so you can understand me
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:30 EDT 2023: : am
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:31 EDT 2023: : I am a player of the team league tournament
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:31 EDT 2023: : I don't know how else to communicate with you but in this way
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:32 EDT 2023: : I tell you that we have problems to play the following week in the fourth round....
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:33 EDT 2023: : However, it does not mean that we are not going to play it, what happens is that my entire team is going to go to a face-to-face tournament from Tuesday the 18th
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:36 EDT 2023: : I understand that you are the TD of the tournament, in that order of ideas, or we want to apologize because we will not be able to notify our opponents the week of the 18th to the 25th, but of course we will play
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:39 EDT 2023: : I would appreciate it if you could notify our rivals of the following week about the situation, thank you very much that you are having a good day
Messages from jaberwock:
41. jaberwock at Thu Jul 13, 10:36 EDT 2023: what kind of problem with TL are you experiencing?"
............................................................... ..........
With an ambiguous final response from the TD.
We clarify that there were also other communication channels that we used to make the situation known.
However, the only response from the TD was after the start of the fifth round:
................................................................ ..........
From jaberwock, TD: Friday, July 28 at 2:02 PM
Hello,
I have read the postings on this and prior round, and will soon post action taken.
jaberwock
................................................................ ..........
At this point the sixth round is already beginning and he did not make a decision in a prudent time.
Although we have tried to communicate with him, through other intermediaries also with players, we tried to mediate with the team captain and we believe that despite the will of the intermediaries and their willingness, there has been no human power to do that two simple games are carried out, I leave the link of the tournament that we attended how,
50 John Mike Rosales
64 Javier Martinez Quintero
75 Fausto Acevedo
104 Lida Marcela Sepúlveda
https://chess-results.com/tnr785399.aspx?lan=2&art=0&turdet=YES&flag=30
Where my team and I were present.
With all these clarifications that I think are much more than what I should say and in the context of our absence due to our visual condition, for which we cannot have easy access to the TL platform via mobile, I see my claim as a just cause.
In any case, we have hardly ever asked for any type of consideration, for which reason we made the call at the time it should be made.
Now, with the respect that the TD deserves, I think that he has not been diligent when making a decision! The delay does not seem fair to me, but it is time for the TD. We don't know if he is busy, if he works, if he is in poor health, if our complaints bother him. In fact we just wanted an answer so whether it was for or against it didn't matter, just a decision. But we only know what he wrote. Everything from July 12 to date.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
For all of the above we have felt uncomfortable, therefore we announce our withdrawal, so that the points that must be awarded for our absence are taken from now on...
We have another face-to-face tournament very soon
In addition to the one we already had...
Today the sixth round begins and the TD did not pronounce in time to be able to play the games with the necessary time, it is very late and three rounds in a week for my team is not fair...
Many thanks to Kurumin Beto, who has always been willing to help us and to the players who have shown their solidarity and, of course, I am equally grateful to the TDs, who have allowed us to play during this time. thanks for his attention...
This message will be published in the forum of the ro
Season 88, for further analysis and reflection by the actors and future players.
John Mike - Maxysgm
In the first instance, we apologize for the rounds not played in the times that comprise the fourth and fifth days, in the Alekhine section.
In the case of the fourth round we had two games where the players of the fourth and fifth board claimed the TD point, points which we do not accept to lose, the reason for this decision is because we announced our absence for round 4 in good time. .. all this evidenced in the following chat where we explain the reason for our absence to the corresponding TD:
................................................................ ..........
"messages jaberwock
Messages to jaberwock:
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:18 EDT 2023: : hi
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:28 EDT 2023: : hi
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:28 EDT 2023: : okay I already activated the translator so you can understand me
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:30 EDT 2023: : I already activated the translator so you can understand me
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:30 EDT 2023: : am
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:31 EDT 2023: : I am a player of the team league tournament
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:31 EDT 2023: : I don't know how else to communicate with you but in this way
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:32 EDT 2023: : I tell you that we have problems to play the following week in the fourth round....
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:33 EDT 2023: : However, it does not mean that we are not going to play it, what happens is that my entire team is going to go to a face-to-face tournament from Tuesday the 18th
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:36 EDT 2023: : I understand that you are the TD of the tournament, in that order of ideas, or we want to apologize because we will not be able to notify our opponents the week of the 18th to the 25th, but of course we will play
maxysgm at Wed Jul 12, 21:39 EDT 2023: : I would appreciate it if you could notify our rivals of the following week about the situation, thank you very much that you are having a good day
Messages from jaberwock:
41. jaberwock at Thu Jul 13, 10:36 EDT 2023: what kind of problem with TL are you experiencing?"
............................................................... ..........
With an ambiguous final response from the TD.
We clarify that there were also other communication channels that we used to make the situation known.
However, the only response from the TD was after the start of the fifth round:
................................................................ ..........
From jaberwock, TD: Friday, July 28 at 2:02 PM
Hello,
I have read the postings on this and prior round, and will soon post action taken.
jaberwock
................................................................ ..........
At this point the sixth round is already beginning and he did not make a decision in a prudent time.
Although we have tried to communicate with him, through other intermediaries also with players, we tried to mediate with the team captain and we believe that despite the will of the intermediaries and their willingness, there has been no human power to do that two simple games are carried out, I leave the link of the tournament that we attended how,
50 John Mike Rosales
64 Javier Martinez Quintero
75 Fausto Acevedo
104 Lida Marcela Sepúlveda
https://chess-results.com/tnr785399.aspx?lan=2&art=0&turdet=YES&flag=30
Where my team and I were present.
With all these clarifications that I think are much more than what I should say and in the context of our absence due to our visual condition, for which we cannot have easy access to the TL platform via mobile, I see my claim as a just cause.
In any case, we have hardly ever asked for any type of consideration, for which reason we made the call at the time it should be made.
Now, with the respect that the TD deserves, I think that he has not been diligent when making a decision! The delay does not seem fair to me, but it is time for the TD. We don't know if he is busy, if he works, if he is in poor health, if our complaints bother him. In fact we just wanted an answer so whether it was for or against it didn't matter, just a decision. But we only know what he wrote. Everything from July 12 to date.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
For all of the above we have felt uncomfortable, therefore we announce our withdrawal, so that the points that must be awarded for our absence are taken from now on...
We have another face-to-face tournament very soon
In addition to the one we already had...
Today the sixth round begins and the TD did not pronounce in time to be able to play the games with the necessary time, it is very late and three rounds in a week for my team is not fair...
Many thanks to Kurumin Beto, who has always been willing to help us and to the players who have shown their solidarity and, of course, I am equally grateful to the TDs, who have allowed us to play during this time. thanks for his attention...
This message will be published in the forum of the ro
Season 88, for further analysis and reflection by the actors and future players.
John Mike - Maxysgm
posted at 2023-08-02 10:02 by herrahuu
Does this mean all VirtualRed games will be nullified?
posted at 2023-08-02 10:18 by Turamon
there would have been a simple solution to this ... just don't enlist for a teamleague in which you can't guarantee your team to play in every round.
posted at 2023-08-02 11:36 by KRMCHESS
Here's the way I would see things. First of all I can sympathise with VirtualRed having their whole team having an otb competition that means it's hard to field a team. However the rules that TD's have to enforce mean that the TDs in my opinion acted correctly in awarding the defaults. The exact rules are as follows:
Section 10 Scheduling part E states that the "Game Completion Deadline = Tuesday 2200 FICS server time of the week following the start of the round" so game has to be completed within a week unless it is postponed.
Section 14 covers Postponements and this can only be applied if the following conditions are met:
i. The game shall be still pending and not designated as forfeit or set game.
ii. Both players shall agree to postpone the game.
iii. The time and day that the game is to be played is set, and this time and day shall not be past the Game Completion Deadline for the following round.
iv. The Tournament Director shall be informed by the Game Completion Deadline by both players (or their Team Captains) of the postponed status, and the time and day the game will be played.
So reading the above means that if one of the players asks for a default it means both players don't agree to postpone the game so the TD awards the default win to the player who was willing to play before the Game Completion Deadline. Players can be nice and agree to reschedule but it's not obligatory and can cause them difficulties in subsequent rounds as they have to play an extra game in the following week. I will also add that postponements can harm the opposing team as I've had cases where my player has agreed to a postponement and then told me that since they've got a postponed match to play they'd like to not be selected in the lineup for the following round that means I field a weaker side the following round.
Note that I'm not a TD so all the above is my interpretation of the rules having been a team captain for several years. Often TDs will show a bit of leniency if both players can reach an amicable agreement but failing that then they apply the rules and what I've quoted I believe are relevant rules that apply.
I'll also add that it's a shame things ended up the way they have. I'm sure VirtualRed felt that morally they had a case but legally they don't have a case. If I was a captain in this situation I'd be upfront, say I can't play due to an otb event and say that technically they can claim a win but if they're willing to play the next week it would be really, really appreciated and apologise for the inconvenience. Although you would be relying on your opponent's mercy and they could have perfectly justified reasons for claiming a win. If anyone does have a similar situation my advice would be to play the next rounds games normally since if the TDs did change their mind you've now got 4 other games that also need resolved.
Section 10 Scheduling part E states that the "Game Completion Deadline = Tuesday 2200 FICS server time of the week following the start of the round" so game has to be completed within a week unless it is postponed.
Section 14 covers Postponements and this can only be applied if the following conditions are met:
i. The game shall be still pending and not designated as forfeit or set game.
ii. Both players shall agree to postpone the game.
iii. The time and day that the game is to be played is set, and this time and day shall not be past the Game Completion Deadline for the following round.
iv. The Tournament Director shall be informed by the Game Completion Deadline by both players (or their Team Captains) of the postponed status, and the time and day the game will be played.
So reading the above means that if one of the players asks for a default it means both players don't agree to postpone the game so the TD awards the default win to the player who was willing to play before the Game Completion Deadline. Players can be nice and agree to reschedule but it's not obligatory and can cause them difficulties in subsequent rounds as they have to play an extra game in the following week. I will also add that postponements can harm the opposing team as I've had cases where my player has agreed to a postponement and then told me that since they've got a postponed match to play they'd like to not be selected in the lineup for the following round that means I field a weaker side the following round.
Note that I'm not a TD so all the above is my interpretation of the rules having been a team captain for several years. Often TDs will show a bit of leniency if both players can reach an amicable agreement but failing that then they apply the rules and what I've quoted I believe are relevant rules that apply.
I'll also add that it's a shame things ended up the way they have. I'm sure VirtualRed felt that morally they had a case but legally they don't have a case. If I was a captain in this situation I'd be upfront, say I can't play due to an otb event and say that technically they can claim a win but if they're willing to play the next week it would be really, really appreciated and apologise for the inconvenience. Although you would be relying on your opponent's mercy and they could have perfectly justified reasons for claiming a win. If anyone does have a similar situation my advice would be to play the next rounds games normally since if the TDs did change their mind you've now got 4 other games that also need resolved.
posted at 2023-08-02 20:47 by Maxysgm
Warm greetings to all... Their opinions are very valid.
To @herrahuu
I don't really know I guess we'll keep playing and only our points will be taken. This is not just my decision. My other colleagues are determined.
To @turamon
But of course what else could we expect from your arrogance. You are a very good player I congratulate you I am sorry that we are not at your level to be able to play a fair game with you, the truth is we are not interested if we win or lose, we just play...
It is not worth getting into these discussions with you, you already know first-hand some of our difficulties and your position has become more than clear to us. Thank you very much.
To @krmchess
I understand the situation, the rules are very clear, excuse me and my team, again I give my apologies to everyone. In fact I talked to everyone comedely asking them to give us a little more deadline for these to play round 4, unfortunately for some reason my messages were not sent, I don't see well and I think I did something wrong at the time of sending, I didn't even notice anything else until Tuesday night where the points had already been awarded.
I actually felt a little annoyed because we thought that the TD would be kind enough to take into account our messages.
Well, it's an uncomfortable situation for us, the rules are clear, you're absolutely right, but it would have been better if TD had been the one who had directly spoken to us and shown everything in the way that you have raised it.
But at one hour we do not see TD pronounce.
........................................................
Masters it has been a pleasure to play with you when possible. You are all very good chess players and that's what we were coming for. Fortunately for us, our league is bombarding us with face-to-face tournaments and they give us a few days' notice.
My friend yavchess was warned two days ago that he had to travel to a tournament in the city of Medellin, that is, even if he wanted the rules will not allow him to play any of his two games.
When we started the team league tournament we did not know that we were going to be so committed to face-to-face tournaments.
Sorry, how I reflect for the future seasons it is better not to register a league that is a full team in TL, why the rules do not exempt from applying to teams that must attend real tournaments.
I wish everyone to have a good close of tournament.
To @herrahuu
I don't really know I guess we'll keep playing and only our points will be taken. This is not just my decision. My other colleagues are determined.
To @turamon
But of course what else could we expect from your arrogance. You are a very good player I congratulate you I am sorry that we are not at your level to be able to play a fair game with you, the truth is we are not interested if we win or lose, we just play...
It is not worth getting into these discussions with you, you already know first-hand some of our difficulties and your position has become more than clear to us. Thank you very much.
To @krmchess
I understand the situation, the rules are very clear, excuse me and my team, again I give my apologies to everyone. In fact I talked to everyone comedely asking them to give us a little more deadline for these to play round 4, unfortunately for some reason my messages were not sent, I don't see well and I think I did something wrong at the time of sending, I didn't even notice anything else until Tuesday night where the points had already been awarded.
I actually felt a little annoyed because we thought that the TD would be kind enough to take into account our messages.
Well, it's an uncomfortable situation for us, the rules are clear, you're absolutely right, but it would have been better if TD had been the one who had directly spoken to us and shown everything in the way that you have raised it.
But at one hour we do not see TD pronounce.
........................................................
Masters it has been a pleasure to play with you when possible. You are all very good chess players and that's what we were coming for. Fortunately for us, our league is bombarding us with face-to-face tournaments and they give us a few days' notice.
My friend yavchess was warned two days ago that he had to travel to a tournament in the city of Medellin, that is, even if he wanted the rules will not allow him to play any of his two games.
When we started the team league tournament we did not know that we were going to be so committed to face-to-face tournaments.
Sorry, how I reflect for the future seasons it is better not to register a league that is a full team in TL, why the rules do not exempt from applying to teams that must attend real tournaments.
I wish everyone to have a good close of tournament.
posted at 2023-08-03 04:32 by KRMCHESS
@Maxysgm
I think part of the issues you had were translation and communication issues. It looks like jaberwock was asking for more details and didn't receive anything so both sides were waiting for the other to continue. I think TD might also have been a bit confused as it's not really his role to forward messages and it would have been worthwhile contacting the captain of the opposing team in messages beforehand as well.
As far as how to proceed this is my suggestion:
Round 4: Accept default losses as rules were correctly applied
Round 5: Your opponents have kindly offered to have all the games set as unplayed draws despite being allowed to claim default wins. So I would suggest you accept the offer as it also helps solve fixture congestion for your team.
Round 6: Play games as normal. I believe if you win the match your team would reach the playoff finals.
As far as future TL tournaments go that's something you'll have to consider in due time. If you and your team often have tournaments at the same time but want to play in TL it might be better to play in separate teams as 4 teams losing 1 player is easier to handle than 1 team losing 4 players. Having said that it's something for you and your team to slowly consider.
I think part of the issues you had were translation and communication issues. It looks like jaberwock was asking for more details and didn't receive anything so both sides were waiting for the other to continue. I think TD might also have been a bit confused as it's not really his role to forward messages and it would have been worthwhile contacting the captain of the opposing team in messages beforehand as well.
As far as how to proceed this is my suggestion:
Round 4: Accept default losses as rules were correctly applied
Round 5: Your opponents have kindly offered to have all the games set as unplayed draws despite being allowed to claim default wins. So I would suggest you accept the offer as it also helps solve fixture congestion for your team.
Round 6: Play games as normal. I believe if you win the match your team would reach the playoff finals.
As far as future TL tournaments go that's something you'll have to consider in due time. If you and your team often have tournaments at the same time but want to play in TL it might be better to play in separate teams as 4 teams losing 1 player is easier to handle than 1 team losing 4 players. Having said that it's something for you and your team to slowly consider.
posted at 2023-08-03 16:47 by jaberwock
Hello,
Having played in Team League since T35, and been TD since T39, I wish to note that I have tried to offer respectful and fair decisions made during each season.
I write to discuss the scenario involving the teams virtualred and RainbowWarriors from the Alekhine section in round 4 of T88 of Team League.
As co-chief TD as well as well as acting TD for the Alekhine section, I start my acknowledging my inadvertent contribution to the miscommunication which has led to words and actions which have brought us to our current standing.
I recall reading the posting within the round 3 forum of players of virtualred of the team planning to miss round 4 for their OTB tournament in their own country, requesting postponement for round 4 TL games. I misread the posting, and thought that two games had rescheduled, and that the two games which were ruled by me as forfeits against virtualred due to inability to reschedule. That was my error, for which I apologize. Given hindsight, I would have tried to broker agreement between teams in round 4.
This appeared to prompt virtual teamcaptain maxysgm to announce that no future games would be played by his team until the two forfeits were rescinded and replayed.
I will note:
a) Requests for entire team postponements are rare, but possibly manageable. In the future, it should be done between captains of teams of the given round, and not posted in the game forum of the previous round teams not involved.
b) An appeal for the two forfeits would be certainly reasonable. Such appeals sometimes may take time, and following rounds should continue pending a decision. To state an arbitrary deadline by players involved is an unnecessary escalation which should be avoided.
c) maxysgm has been a stalwart competitor and/or captain for 14 seasons with from my view only commendations for only good sportsmanship.
d) At this stage, I do not predict the likelihood of completing games from rounds 4, 5, and now, 6 to be played, as we conclude the regular rounds before playoffs.
Whether of not maxysgm and his teammates consider returning to Team League, I hope they accept my apology for my mismanagement.
I welcome their return to T89 in October.
Jaberwock
Please feel free to email any response.
This will be emailed to maxysgm and co-chief TD smallblackcat, as well as posted on the Team League Forum Board.
Having played in Team League since T35, and been TD since T39, I wish to note that I have tried to offer respectful and fair decisions made during each season.
I write to discuss the scenario involving the teams virtualred and RainbowWarriors from the Alekhine section in round 4 of T88 of Team League.
As co-chief TD as well as well as acting TD for the Alekhine section, I start my acknowledging my inadvertent contribution to the miscommunication which has led to words and actions which have brought us to our current standing.
I recall reading the posting within the round 3 forum of players of virtualred of the team planning to miss round 4 for their OTB tournament in their own country, requesting postponement for round 4 TL games. I misread the posting, and thought that two games had rescheduled, and that the two games which were ruled by me as forfeits against virtualred due to inability to reschedule. That was my error, for which I apologize. Given hindsight, I would have tried to broker agreement between teams in round 4.
This appeared to prompt virtual teamcaptain maxysgm to announce that no future games would be played by his team until the two forfeits were rescinded and replayed.
I will note:
a) Requests for entire team postponements are rare, but possibly manageable. In the future, it should be done between captains of teams of the given round, and not posted in the game forum of the previous round teams not involved.
b) An appeal for the two forfeits would be certainly reasonable. Such appeals sometimes may take time, and following rounds should continue pending a decision. To state an arbitrary deadline by players involved is an unnecessary escalation which should be avoided.
c) maxysgm has been a stalwart competitor and/or captain for 14 seasons with from my view only commendations for only good sportsmanship.
d) At this stage, I do not predict the likelihood of completing games from rounds 4, 5, and now, 6 to be played, as we conclude the regular rounds before playoffs.
Whether of not maxysgm and his teammates consider returning to Team League, I hope they accept my apology for my mismanagement.
I welcome their return to T89 in October.
Jaberwock
Please feel free to email any response.
This will be emailed to maxysgm and co-chief TD smallblackcat, as well as posted on the Team League Forum Board.
posted at 2023-08-04 07:05 by maxysgm
Best regards @ Jaberwock
We were anxiously waiting for your opinion, thank you very much for giving it to us and obviously we give you ours for abusing your privileges as an administrator.
Clearly it's all been a problem of interpretation, I also apologise because I made the mistake of not making sure I sent the apology messages correctly to all opponents, specifically boards three and four of round 4. I also regret that I was wrong to believe that it would be easier to solve our situation with a little more camaraderie, it is clear that the tournament has more protocols than I thought.
My colleagues and I are highly competitive as people, we didn't like losing or losing unfairly, they got a little upset when they saw the lack of response, they decided not to play anymore because the times wouldn't be enough for so many games in a single week.
In any case, we all make mistakes and accepting when we have made one is gentlemanly, of course, we accept your apologies and please accept ours as well...
However, we will not be able to play the pending rounds, we will have more face-to-face tournaments. Yachts - Javier MartÃnez Quintero, started another face-to-face tournament this week and will only return until Friday of the other one.
Link
https://chess-results.com/tnr783943.aspx?lan=1&art=2&rd=1&flag=30
Apologies to all teams TeamLeague our priority now is to prepare for the national fires that took place in December, our league is not helping itself with many in-person games.
Hopefully we can be back by 2024.
Warm greetings to all
We were anxiously waiting for your opinion, thank you very much for giving it to us and obviously we give you ours for abusing your privileges as an administrator.
Clearly it's all been a problem of interpretation, I also apologise because I made the mistake of not making sure I sent the apology messages correctly to all opponents, specifically boards three and four of round 4. I also regret that I was wrong to believe that it would be easier to solve our situation with a little more camaraderie, it is clear that the tournament has more protocols than I thought.
My colleagues and I are highly competitive as people, we didn't like losing or losing unfairly, they got a little upset when they saw the lack of response, they decided not to play anymore because the times wouldn't be enough for so many games in a single week.
In any case, we all make mistakes and accepting when we have made one is gentlemanly, of course, we accept your apologies and please accept ours as well...
However, we will not be able to play the pending rounds, we will have more face-to-face tournaments. Yachts - Javier MartÃnez Quintero, started another face-to-face tournament this week and will only return until Friday of the other one.
Link
https://chess-results.com/tnr783943.aspx?lan=1&art=2&rd=1&flag=30
Apologies to all teams TeamLeague our priority now is to prepare for the national fires that took place in December, our league is not helping itself with many in-person games.
Hopefully we can be back by 2024.
Warm greetings to all
posted at 2023-08-04 21:38 by jaberwock
Hello Maxygsm,
I appreciate your responding.
Given the circumstances including the OTB play by your team members (thank you for including link!) and preparation for cited national fires, I will complete loose ends by posting unplayed games in favor of opponents. The results of prior played games will be unchanged.
Good luck to your team in your OTB play, and I hope you will consider returning to Team League in the future.
jaberwock
I appreciate your responding.
Given the circumstances including the OTB play by your team members (thank you for including link!) and preparation for cited national fires, I will complete loose ends by posting unplayed games in favor of opponents. The results of prior played games will be unchanged.
Good luck to your team in your OTB play, and I hope you will consider returning to Team League in the future.
jaberwock